Kansas Man Recognized for Contribution in Identifying McVeigh through Gun Records

Many are at least vaguely familiar with the chain of events that led to the arrests of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. But there's a part of the story you probably haven't heard, involving a man you've probably never heard of who helped identify McVeigh.

Monday, April 19th 2010, 5:41 pm

By: News 9


By Alex Cameron, NEWS 9

OGDEN, Kansas – Many are at least vaguely familiar with the chain of events that led to the arrests of Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. But there's a part of the story you probably haven't heard, involving a man you've probably never heard of who helped identify McVeigh.

Pat Livingston is happy both Kansas and Oklahoma recently recognized his role in convicting the Oklahoma City bombers, but even happier that the federal government approved his request to get back the records documenting that role.

"There's the Glock pistol I sold McVeigh that he was carrying when he was picked up," Pat Livingston said.

About an hour after the bomb went off, Timothy McVeigh was pulled over on I-35 for driving without a tag. He was taken into custody for illegally carrying a 45-caliber Glock he bought in 1991 at Pat's Pawn and Guns in Ogden, Kansas.

Livingston is the former owner of Pat's Pawn and Guns. He sold the business a few months ago, but still owns the dark memories of his brush with McVeigh, the Glock and his role in tying the two together.

"The ATF calls me up and they say ‘Yeah, we need to know, on a Glock pistol, caliber 45, serial number was VW769…'" Livingston said.

On April 21, with federal agents starting to figure out just who they had sitting in the Noble County jail, Livingston rifled through his files and found this transaction record with McVeigh's name.

See the gun sale transaction records for McVeigh and FBI evidence document.

"Well then these ATF agents and FBI agents come screamin'. Ya know, come runnin' in the store with their hands on their guns, ya know…" Livingston recalled.

Livingston gave them records of three gun purchases McVeigh had made between 1991 and 1993. He said he remembered McVeigh because he'd written a bad check on one of the guns.

An agent then showed Livingston a composite drawing of John Doe number one, the man who had rented the Ryder truck.

"He said ‘Does this look like him?' and I said ‘Man, Harry, this is a horrible deal, man…I don't know if I want to be, ya know.' I was kind of reluctant. I hesitated because, ya know, I thought about this and I said ‘Man, this is my life and my business and my family, ya know. I don't know what they're gonna do to me.' But, I said what the heck," Livingston said. "I said ‘That's him, guarantee ya that's Timothy McVeigh right there.'"

Livingston had given the federal agents additional corroboration of the bomber's identity and records linking McVeigh to the gun that was grounds for his original detention. Then, as he feared, Livingston said he started getting threats.

"This one clown called me three times and I got ticked off and I said ‘Man, ya know what?' I said ‘I've got a 44 magnum here, Sonny. Whenever you get froggy…' I said ‘…You got about fifteen minutes. I'll meet you out in front of my building.' I loaded my 44 mag, went out and stood on the sidewalk. I says ‘Come on down…'" he said.

No one showed, but the threats, he said, took a toll.

"It was terrible," Livingston said.

Getting his paperwork back all these years later won't make the scars go away, but it is, Livingston said, a small and welcome reward.

Livingston said he also sold two handguns to Terry Nichols in 1995. The records of those transactions are now back in his possession, as well.

See the gun sale transaction record for Nichols.

McVeigh's Glock is on display at the Oklahoma City National Memorial Museum.

More:
- Read the letter from Oklahoma Governor Brad Henry recognizing Pat Livingston's role in the Murrah bombing investigation.
- Read the letter from Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius recognizing Pat Livingston.
- Read the FBI investigation document involving Livingston's I.D. of McVeigh.

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